Tag Archives: Tempo Range

Music and Dance

New Feature: Tempo-per-dance, or what if I want to Salsa to this song twice as fast as someone else wants to Cha Cha to it?

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One of the things I’ve been struggling with since very early on in the music4dance story is the fact that not everyone hears the same rhythm when they dance to the same song. Struggling isn’t the right word – it’s a difficult technical problem to solve in the context of the music4dance song index, but a delightful result of the plurality of both music and dance (and musicians and dancers) that I celebrate.

In any case, I believe I’ve finally arrived at a reasonable solution, and it’s up and running on the site. You can now specify that a song is danced at 180bpm for Lindy Hop without trouncing on another dancer’s opinion that it should be danced at 95bpm for Night Club Two Step. And, most importantly, you can filter on Night Club Two Steps between 90 and 95bpm in advanced search, and that song will be included. And a search for Lindy Hops between 175 and 180 bpm will also include our hypothetical song.

I almost stalled out while writing this post because there are so many variations in tempo-per-dance. It’s a rabbit hole I could fall down and not emerge from for a very long time. I clawed my way out of that particular hole by promising myself that I would take time to write a series of posts, each one concentrating on one of the variations. We’ll see how that goes.

Bam Bam

And just to give a concrete example, “Bam Bam” by Camila Cabello was one of the songs that got me over the hump to implement this feature. A couple of sources listed this song as Salsa at 190 bpm, but one of the DJs who contributes to music4dance emailed me to let me know that he has been playing it at his dances as a Cha Cha, where folks dance to it at 95 bpm. And since he is a thorough researcher, he looked it up, and it’s listed at 95 bpm on the official sheet music. So, for a while, I had this song listed at 95 bpm for both Salsa and Cha Cha. But now it is one of the first songs I have corrected to use different tempos for different dances:

Screenshot of “Bam Bam,” showing Salas @ 190 and Cha Cha @ 95bpm
Screenshot of “Bam Bam,” showing Salas @ 190 and Cha Cha @ 95bpm
Salsa search for tempo @190bpm shows “Bam Bam.”
Salsa search for tempo @ 190 bpm shows “Bam Bam.”
Cha Cha search for tempo @95bpm also shows “Bam Bam.”
Cha Cha search for tempo @ 95 bpm also shows “Bam Bam.”

Where to go from here?

I’m spending some time tracking down the songs that are the most egregious offenders that can be corrected with this improvement. That includes things like the 4/4 songs that are half-time/double time of each other. Along these lines, I’ll probably implement more tempo constraints for dances to help me find such offenders – see “Ask music4dance: Why are the tempos that music4dance lists for Salsa wrong?” for more info. If you have thoughts on these kinds of tempo constraints, please let me know.

I’ll also be taking another look at Waltzes that are either marked as 4/4 or danced to other types of dances, since this is generally another flag that something funny is going on with rhythms and tempos.

Are there other places that you’ve noticed tempo listings conflicting with your expectations based on the dances you know well? If so, please take a run at fixing them up – I’ve moved to enabling more community modifications of these attributes, so with this change and updated documentation, hopefully you can fix things that look wrong to you – if not, I’d like to know so that I can improve the feature.

Step of the Month

The “Step of the Month” for June is to check your account management page. It is nice to see the songs another user has tagged. This information is available only to other logged-in members of the community, so please consider making your information available to the community by checking the “Share my Profile” option to improve other members’ experience (the alternative is that your votes and tags are attributed to an anonymous user, which is much less friendly).

What Happens When a Song is Danced at Different Tempos?

Sometimes, a song can be a perfectly good Bolero when heard one way but a Salsa when counting the music differently. Another example is Slow Dance (Castle Foxtrot) vs. Lindy Hop. Generally, this phenomenon is because, with some music, it’s easy to count what the musicians see as either a half note or a quarter…

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Enhanced Feature: Editing Tempos and Deleting Tags

Based on some of the comments on my last post, I’ve been thinking more about my early decisions concerning who can edit various aspects of a song in the music4dance catalog. I was worried that malicious actors would mess with the data, and spent considerable time designing and implementing a system that lets me roll…

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What is a fake Waltz?

I was recently asked why there are songs tagged as Waltz in the music4dance catalog that are in 4/4 time.  This seems almost like the dance version of an oxymoron.   In my brief description of the Waltz on the website I start with “Waltzes are dances that are danced to music in 3/4 time…” To…

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Ask music4dance: Why are the tempos that music4dance lists for Salsa wrong?

I’ve addressed questions about tempo in several different ways over the years, and I appreciate the continued feedback, as there is absolutely room for improvement in how the music4dance system handles tempo. Algorithms are far from perfect: The issue at hand is that many of the tempos listed for Salsa were exactly half the speed…

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Music and Dance

Ask music4dance: Why is the tempo range you list for West Coast Swing wrong?

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A West Coast Swing DJ contacted me and kindly let me know that the tempo range I had listed for West Coast Swing was “entirely wrong.” The average tempos that she plays are between 90 and 110 bpm, while I listed a tempo range of 112-128 bpm. 

Before I dig further into the details, I’d like to take a moment to thank this DJ and everyone who has taken the time to point out issues with the site.  Curating a site like music4dance is a big job, and mistakes will creep in. So, having the community members speak up when they see something that seems wrong is essential to keeping the site as accurate as possible.

In this particular case, I found it surprising that the information I listed was entirely wrong.  I don’t claim to be an expert on all (or even most) of the dances I cover on the site.  But West Coast Swing is one of the dances I’m most comfortable actually dancing.  My first thought was that some kind of regional difference was going on.  But one of the DJs my interlocutor referred to plays at a venue I’ve danced at within the last decade.

My second thought was that this was a difference between the Ballroom community and the “Westie” community.  That’s a bit closer to the mark. But as mentioned, I have done some social WCS dancing in the same venues where the DJs write about playing much slower tempos than I’m used to, so it couldn’t be the whole story.

The only other thing I could think of was that dances evolve over time.  This is especially true with dances like WCS, which are danced to popular music that is also changing.  In fact, that’s one of the things that I enjoy about WCS.  As primarily a ballroom dancer, WCS is the dance that I can take out to a club and just get funky with.  So, I’m pretty sure the combination of these three things brings me to a reasonable explanation of the difference that prompted the original email.

Dances evolving over time is something that both intrigues me and confounds the part of my brain that wants to be able to neatly categorize things.  And the categorizing part of my brain is fairly dominant in building a site like music4dance.

One of the reasons that it even occurred to me that I could do this kind of categorization is that competition dances tend to “lock in” the tempo somewhat, at least for competitions where the DJs are required to play music within a specific range.  That is true of Ballroom competitions but apparently not true of West Coast Swing competitions. I’ve updated my WCS social tempo to 80-130bpm, the broadest tempo range suggested by DJ Koichi Tsunoda in his post. This is the most authoritative source I could find.  It doesn’t look like World Swing Dance Council or National Associate of Swinge Dance Events publishes requirements or recommendations for WCS tempo.

Contrary to my previous point, even Ballroom dance tempos evolve.  I discovered that the Ballroom Dance organizations (NDCA and DanceSport) updated their tempo recommendations for competition dances since the last time I looked.  But there wasn’t a lot of shift.  The most significant change was that NDCA went from a complicated matrix of tempos that included different recommendations for ProAm vs Professional/Amateur and level (Bronze, Silver, Gold) to a single tempo for each dance.  I’ve updated those tempos as well.  But there wasn’t any significant shift in direction – none of the tempo recommendations for dances were much faster or slower than previously.

I’m considering adding a “Social” style to the Americana and International styles that are dictated by the Ballroom associations.  It’s certainly true that even ballroom dances can be danced to a broader range of tempos than what is dictated by competition rules, and the site should reflect that.

All of this is to lead up to a couple of specific requests for anyone who has some expertise in these areas.

  1. Please let me know if you have an issue with any of the tempos I list on the site.  I depend on the community to help keep me up-to-date and catch any errors.  While there isn’t a “right” answer unless stated by competition rules, I’d like to do my best to land on numbers that are not “entirely wrong.”
  2. Specifically, if anyone has a good source for comfortable or social ranges of tempos for the ballroom dances, I’d like a place to start.

In addition to the above specific requests, if you have comments or suggestions or stumble upon other errors, please feel free to reply to this post or contact me here. And finally, if you enjoy the site or the blog (or both), please consider contributing in whatever way makes sense for you.

Translating how dance teachers count

Something came up the other day as I was talking to a friend who just took his first social dance class. He has a musical background and is used to hearing and counting beats as a musician. So he got a little obsessed and distracted with figuring out the translation between what he was hearing…

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Do Dancers Think in Eights?

I was tickled to hear Nigel Lythgoe talk a little about choreographing tap on a recent episode of So You Think You Can Dance. The commentary is at about 1:13, but please start at about 1:10 so you can see the performance that he’s referring to.  It’s a tap piece that Emma, one of the…

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Reviews

Book Review: How to Read Music in 30 Days

While dancers definitely don’t need to be able to read music, it is helpful to be able to dig up sheet music for a song and understand the meter and tempo markings. This can act as a sanity check against what you hear, tap out in a tempo counter, or find by just stepping out the dance.

The catch is that the simple idea that 3/4 meter is a waltz and 4/4 is everything else only gets you so far. What is 12/8 or 2/2? Can you even dance to music that is marked in those ways and others? How to Read Music in 30 Days describes simple and compound meters and tempo markings in enough detail to get your head wrapped around these markings and translate them back to something meaningful to a dancer.

Last year, I wrote a blog post about how musicians and dancers might think of tempo differently. In that case, it was a simple matter of the written music and the musician thinking about the pulse or underlying beat as being twice the tempo as the dancer does.

In the case that prompted this post, I was asked about “Like I’m Gonna Lose You,” by Meghan Trainor featuring John Legend which is marked as 12/8 with a dotted quarter note = 72 beats per minute.

12/8 meter

This could be translated to a 3/4 meter at 72 measures per minute or 216 beats per minute. That would be a very fast Viennese Waltz, which is what 6 people have voted for. Alternatively, one could translate this to 4/4 time 72 beats per minute or 18 measures per minute, which would make a good Slow Dance, Blues Dance, or a very slow West Coast Swing, all of which have votes. See the book for how to do these translations; it’s explained better there than I can manage.

Since I can only have one tempo listed per song, I’m a little stuck on being able to get the “dancer’s tempo” correct for songs that can be danced to different interpretations of the beat. I’m starting to think about reworking music4dance so we can override the tempo on a per-dance style basis. That’s a pretty significant lift for a small number of songs. But this keeps coming up, so let me know what you think. If I get enough people asking for this, I’ll figure out how to make it work.

This is a topic that I’ve touched on quite a bit, so here are some other posts and resources that might be of interest:

As always, I’m very interested in your feedback, so please share any thoughts and ideas about this post or the site by commenting below or using other feedback mechanisms listed here. In addition, if you enjoy the site or the blog (or both), please consider contributing in whatever way that makes sense for you.

How to Read Music in 30 Days: Kindle

How to Read Music in 30 Days: Paperback

How to Read Music in 30 Days: Hardcover

How to Read Music in 30 Days: Spiral Bound

Note: If you found this book through this blog, please be kind and click on one of the links above to purchase it. This helps support the blog. If you’re feeling especially generous (or just like the blog a lot), clicking on the Amazon links in the blog or on the music4dance site and then doing your regular, unrelated shopping, which also helps support the site as a very small fraction of those proceeds will be directed to musci4dance.

Archive

I’m a competition ballroom dancer, can I find practice songs that are a specific tempo?

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Update (May 2024): Music4dance has evolved enough that this post is stale. Please check out the updated version of this post for current information.

The quick answer to this question is yes, definitely!

First, many of the songs in our catalog have been tagged with a tempo, so it is easy to get a list of suggestions.  However, these are tempi that have been sourced from all over the web, so please use this as a first approximation rather than some kind of official source.

That said, it’s very easy to get  a list of songs of a particular tempo.  Just go to the song list page (the “Songs” item in the “Music” menu), choose the style of dance you’re interested in practicing [A] and click on the “More” button [B].

dance-selector-annotated

Then you can fill the minimum tempo (C) an the maximum temp (D), and click the search button (E) to get a list of songs.

tempo-filter-annotated

If the list is empty we haven’t tagged any songs in that tempo range for that dance style.  Which is the perfect segue into the another way to do this kind of search.

If you are competing in a particular category (International Standard, International Latin, American Smooth and American Rhythm), you can go to the info page for that category by  clicking on the name of the category on the  Ballroom Dancer section of the home page or at the bottom of the dance style page.  The core of each of these pages is a table with the dances styles for that competition category and the competition tempo ranges.  The tempo ranges are active links to just the kind of song search that I described in the last paragraph.  Starting here will assure that you’ve started with the approved competition tempo range. Full documentation for the dance category pages can be found here.

Finally, if you are practicing a particular dance you can start from the dance style page (from the “Dances” item in the “Music” menu) and click on the dance style that you’re practicing.  The tempo info link on that page will take you to the same table as the category page but with just the single dance style specified.  Full documentation for the dance style pages can be found here.

Hope that helps.  If you are interested in helping refine our catalog (by, for instance, adding ‘strict’ tags) please sign up for our upcoming beta via this feedback form, or use the same form to report incorrect tempi or other information in our database.